Opinion: Let's redo the APS-C lineup in 2025. Please.

#41
Am I being naive?
But I still don't understand why the M line had to disappear. It was very popular in many countries, and there is absolutely nothing to replace it.
Good for Sony. Panasonic and Fuji...pretty bad for Canon.
Would it really be so difficult to make an M6 III with an RF bayonet?
 
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#42
Del Paso said:
Am I being naive?
But I still don't understand why the M line had to disappear. It was very popular in many countries, and there is absolutely nothing to replace it.
Good for Sony. Panasonic and Fuji...pretty bad for Canon.
Would it really be so difficult to make an M6 III with an RF bayonet?
Click to expand...
I haven’t measured it, but the RF mount might be slightly taller than the M6II, which would make it a very funny looking camera, or make it bigger again.

I’m rooting for a funny looking M200 style body!
 
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#43
Del Paso said:
But I still don't understand why the M line had to disappear. It was very popular in many countries, and there is absolutely nothing to replace it.
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I was surprised. But at least in Japan, the R50 took over for the M50 II in terms of being in BCN’s top seller list.

Del Paso said:
Good for Sony. Panasonic and Fuji...pretty bad for Canon.
Click to expand...
Yet Canon was #1 in mirrorless for 2023 by a wide margin. The M50 II was only sold as a double zoom kit after Nov 2022, and the R50 launched in Feb 2023. So it really doesn’t seem like it was bad for Canon.

Del Paso said:
Would it really be so difficult to make an M6 III with an RF bayonet?
Click to expand...
The RF mount is significantly larger. Th skinniest RF lens is only ~2 mm less than the M6II height. But they could certainly make a smaller RF body without an EVF.
 
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#44
josephandrews222 said:
RIchard:

(1) Nice write-up

(2) Wonderful use of the camerasize.com website

(3) I can borrow the well-known phrase about firearms: Wilensky reports that the bumper stickers were at that time sold reading "I Will Give Up My Gun When They Peel My Cold Dead Fingers From Around It." and apply it to my pair of M6MkII's (with the 22, 11-22 and 18-150 lenses). My recollection of posts from right here on CR is that various M models sold quite well in Japan/Asia (but not America except for maybe the M5), facts related to your statement here that "Canon has a deep aversion to being lower than #1 in the domestic market."

(4) In summary, again from the piece:

The EOS-M system focused on small size and portability – but with the EOS-M system now discontinued, this is a notable gap that Canon’s current lineup doesn't address.

Canon always had a global approach to camera marketing. Cameras that may not sell well in North America may have a stronger appeal in Asia and other markets. For the most part, the RF APS-C system has seemed to try to do this – but not with the dominant success they usually have.

=====

I would pay a premium price for the smallest volume/lowest mass body with all the bells and whistles, wrapped around the latest-and-greatest APS-C sensor.

I would also pay a premium price for an ultra-modern sensor/electronics packaged inside a pocket (or nearly pocket-sized) camera...a Canon camera. That those who write for and manage this website are considering Fuji for this (or something like it)...I just don't understand Canon's thinking here.

My desire to pay premium prices for compact-sized Canons has not minimized my desire to own full-size Canon products--I eagerly await shipment of one R5MkII :unsure: (y) and all that goes with it.

...now going to check my email for a notice of shipment:sneaky:
Click to expand...

R5MkII...B&H order on the first day possible...three minutes after the top of the hour...

...has shipped (according to B&H email).

Delivery Estimate Wed Aug 21
 
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#45
neuroanatomist said:
I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for a constant aperture APS-C zoom lens. We’ve been waiting 18 years since the last one, which was also the first one.


The question is, is it fine with the market as a whole?
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I'm sort of OK with a variable aperture zoom but for me it has to start at 15mm. As for the market price its an opportunity for Canon to motivate us with a true 7dmkII replacement, but I do get your point.
 
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#46
I still love using my M6 Mark II. The 61mm lenses and cute body design is amazing. When paired with the built in flash and removable EVF, it really is a camera that can do it all. My 32mm lens still can’t quite fully resolve the sensor at F/1.4, but the 50mm is lovely and I really miss the size advantage when I pick up my R6 or R10.

Side note: the rangefinder design is so approachable compared to the DSLR-esque bodies. I think Canon figured out a beautiful control structure with the triple dials, AF/MF switch, and the AF-On button. I have so much adaptability in such a small package. People around me aren’t put on notice when I take the M6 out and I am so self conscious when I bring out a camera so I gravitate towards using my M6 Mark II, X-E4, and Powershot compacts for most days
 
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#47
Good writing. I agree many points.
Canon really need to redo the APS-C lineup but I think Canon knows the APS-C position.
For example, they released M6 mkii but didn't release M5 mkii, I feel R7 is M5 mkii.
They know APS-C can't sell over 2500usd so it is too hard for them to make a professional APS-C camera.
If they want to save the cost, they can share R6 mkiii size to R7 mkii and use the battery grip.
or they can make both new camera to use R5 mkii new grip!!

Canon makes a lens for VR and Apple Vision Pro. I really think they need to release super 35mm cinema camera first.
One is 8K(around 35.4mp) and One is 4K.
Canon can use the same 8K sensor for R7 mkii. Then their VR lens can record 2 real 4K this time.
or they can make 32.5mp stacked sensor. It can be 7k.

R10 mkii
It seems that R10 selling is not bad in Japan.
I am not sure if they will release in 2015.
If R7 mkii is R5mkii APS-C, R10 can be R6mkii APS-C,
Canon can share the 24.2mp sensor from cinema lineup (if they really release this year or next year)

R50 mkii
Canon is losing the market share to Sony in Japan.
The marketing and inventory are the big problem.
I check most Japanese online shopping sire (Yodobashi, Biccamera, Amazon, Mapcamera or others...)
Most Canon APS-C camera are out of stock or low stock.
It seems that Canon doesn't make enough for Japan.
On the other hand, Sony ZV-E10 has tons and each site front page has Sony ZV-E10
Canon should make a similar R50 but remove EVF.
The name has Vlog and the front photo shows flip screen.
Sony is winning this time because of the name and photo. I think they can let people forget A6xxx lineup.

R100 mkii
I don't know what they can do if they want to sell 399.99 or 299.99
If remove the EVF, it may be R200 which may be 379.99 or lower.

APS-C lens.
Canon may be some weird lens if they have time.
For example EF-M28mm F3.5, it has flash light for food.
I think Vlogger loves this.
Canon may not make APS-C prime lens.. so sad
 
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#48
If there is any truth to this article in digitec is, the long-term trend is showing that apsc is simply being squeezed out, sandwiched by the proliferation and capabilities of the iPhone/Galaxy on the bottom end, and the lowered prices of ff/mf on the upper end. The lack of compelling ef-s and ef-m lenses over a long period of time suggest that developing a smaller system takes significant resources, so why would Canon seriously invest into a shrinking segment? It looks increasingly like the line-in-the-sand for Canon (and Sony/Nikon/Panasonic) is ff, maybe they are purposely and slowly ceding apsc to Fuji and others because they know the fate of apsc will be the same as m43, meaning shrinking, niche, and insignificant. At least with ff, you will always have the professional/prosumer market to lean on, and as prices lower, you could even bring in a few consumers/enthusiasts. In other words, I would not expect any compelling bodies or lenses in the apsc market, it is not so much that Canon doesn't care about apsc, it's that apsc is on the way out.
 
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#50
Andreasb said:
I'm sort of OK with a variable aperture zoom but for me it has to start at 15mm. As for the market price its an opportunity for Canon to motivate us with a true 7dmkII replacement, but I do get your point.
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The EF-S 15-85 was an update to the EF-S 17-85, so it does seem at least possible that Canon will deliver something like the former in the RF mount.

OTOH, they do seem to be relegating APS-C bodies and lenses to the lower end of the spectrum while enabling people who want a midrange option to go full frame. In pretty much every meaningful way, the R8 outperforms the 7DII. Lenses like the 15-30, 16/2.8, 100-400, 600/11 and 800/11 enable the R8 to achieve things in price ranges formerly restricted to APS-C, including ‘more reach’.

Canon seems disinclined to ‘truly’ replace the 7DII. That camera was effectively succeeded by the 90D, which was succeeded by the R7.
 
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#52
woodman411 said:
If there is any truth to this article in digitec is, the long-term trend is showing that apsc is simply being squeezed out, sandwiched by the proliferation and capabilities of the iPhone/Galaxy on the bottom end, and the lowered prices of ff/mf on the upper end. The lack of compelling ef-s and ef-m lenses over a long period of time suggest that developing a smaller system takes significant resources, so why would Canon seriously invest into a shrinking segment? It looks increasingly like the line-in-the-sand for Canon (and Sony/Nikon/Panasonic) is ff, maybe they are purposely and slowly ceding apsc to Fuji and others because they know the fate of apsc will be the same as m43, meaning shrinking, niche, and insignificant. At least with ff, you will always have the professional/prosumer market to lean on, and as prices lower, you could even bring in a few consumers/enthusiasts. In other words, I would not expect any compelling bodies or lenses in the apsc market, it is not so much that Canon doesn't care about apsc, it's that apsc is on the way out.
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Are you calling me a dinosaur?!:unsure:

Hey, I resemble that remark (as the pain in both of my knees ebbs and flows :sneaky:).

But here is what I think I know: I could never get my daughters, ten years ago, to commit to either a Rebel Xt/350 or a 40D.

But the M-format cameras? With the 22mm pancake attached?

Even the early bodies without a viewfinder?

They bought in to M...and still use them.

You are dead right about phones-as-cameras--even phones that are as much as four years old can produce wonderful images.

But I still believe Canon ceding most of the small interchangeable lens format market to others...I'm not certain that this is wise.

But dinosaurs aren't known for their wisdom, eh?

Good post.



o_O
 
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#53
woodman411 said:
If there is any truth to this article in digitec is, the long-term trend is showing that apsc is simply being squeezed out, sandwiched by the proliferation and capabilities of the iPhone/Galaxy on the bottom end, and the lowered prices of ff/mf on the upper end. The lack of compelling ef-s and ef-m lenses over a long period of time suggest that developing a smaller system takes significant resources, so why would Canon seriously invest into a shrinking segment? It looks increasingly like the line-in-the-sand for Canon (and Sony/Nikon/Panasonic) is ff, maybe they are purposely and slowly ceding apsc to Fuji and others because they know the fate of apsc will be the same as m43, meaning shrinking, niche, and insignificant. At least with ff, you will always have the professional/prosumer market to lean on, and as prices lower, you could even bring in a few consumers/enthusiasts. In other words, I would not expect any compelling bodies or lenses in the apsc market, it is not so much that Canon doesn't care about apsc, it's that apsc is on the way out.
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I believe there is a niche for aps-c. As long as there are proper compact lenses to go with the cameras, they are a huge improvement to cellphone cameras when travelling.
 
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#55
I only want an M6 Mark II with the latest AF and video features from the R7. It would be the perfect everyday and travel camera with the 2 new Sigma 2.8 zooms. Unfortunately, it won't ever be that small, thanks to the big and ugly RF-S mount.
 
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#56
LSXPhotog said:
The sky is the limit on what Canon could do with its APS-C lineup. I wonder if their strategy has changed now that producing a full-frame camera like the R8 can be delivered to the market at such a low price point? Perhaps the upper echelon of APS-C cameras hovering around the $1000-1600 mark are "good enough" for Canon right now? I think we can almost all agree that the R100 doesn't even belong in production with its lack of touch screen and incredibly dumbed down feature set. But the R50 could be rehoused into something with a smaller footprint and that may be popular? The R7 Mark II is a camera I'm very eager to get released. If it tries to remain at its launch price point, I fear that we'll see less features that we want. I, like many others, want a 7D Mark II kind of camera. Build and ergonomics similar to the R5II/R6II that can take a grip and give us a true stacked sensor e-shutter that competes with the X-H2S...which is actually not all that fast, but still performs well.

But it can't end there, we need lenses!! I really want to see a port over of the EF-M 22mm and EF-M 32mm...but PLEASE weather seal them. I'm not sure if allowing Sigma to produce APS-C lenses indicates that it's even more unlikely that we'll see these from Canon...but it would be a shame if those two lens formulas never get used again - they were brilliant!
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The R8 is great but I rather have a tiny full-featured APS-C camera with the Sigma 2.8 lens duo, instead of Canon's 7.1 consumer zoom lenses.
 
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#58
Woah guys. Why so harsh?
Canikon has to refresh their whole line up and lenses. They're doing as best as they can to refresh them all.

It makes sense for Canon to mass produce the RF and Rfs cameras first as they have similar bodies. Now they'll do other body types.
 
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#59
Richard CR said:
how do you find the S9?

I liked that camera from Panasonic. what glass do you use with it?
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I like my S9. Tons of video options. I have had to sync pictures Picture Styles --> LUTs using "Canon Faithfull" as a base. A new work flow. Stumbled upon a few sites that have created Kodak Pictures Styles + LUTs. I use Sigma, Lumix, and Canon EF glass with the Sigma MC-21 adapter.
 
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#60
I'm of a similar mind - time to update the crop bodies.

I find myself using my R7 more than my R5 because of the pixel density, but I sure would like to gain some ground in the noise department. I realize that physics dictates some of the noise equation, so I am certain that I wouldn't expect miracles. But with slower telephoto lenses and high pixel density, trying to get a fast shutter speed is a bit more of a battle.

Granted, the newest noise reduction software solutions are fantastic, but the cleaner your starting image, the less digital chicanery necessary.

Of course, the speed of the readout is in need of a great deal of improvement. Don't forget that the sensor of the R7 is a modestly improved version of that of the 90D and a couple of the M bodies. Good but technology has leaped ahead a bit since it was developed.
 
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